In recent days I have been speaking to some friends about how we might properly address aberrant or heretical teaching with in the Church. We've not exactly seen eye to eye on the issue but the dialogue has been good.
Below you will find three videos, one that demonstrates error and two which address how the Church should confront the wolves in her midst.
The Wolf:
YOU
The Shepherd:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. - Peter
Monday, October 5, 2009
Confronting the Wolves
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11 comments:
I remember this conversation. What exactly about that Rob Bell video is wolf-like.
The only thing I could MAYBE see is that Christ is only an example and not a real living God currently at the right hand of the Father; but that's a big stretch. Then at the end he says "You are the Gospel," which I'm sure could set off alarm bells, but that sounds more like he's saying your life live in Christ declares the Gospel, which is a biblical idea.
So, enlighten me please.
What are you talking about I loved the video. Particularly the part when he compares Jesus to Mithra, Atis, and Caesar then says, "What makes yours [god] so special?"
Rob Bell is presenting an inaccurate Gospel. The Gospel is not our effort to change the world through loving acts rather than brute. The Gospel is the good news that God's wrath has been satisfied in the death of the Son. That God humbled Himself by leaving His throne to redeemed wicked and sinful men back to Himself.
I trust you can discern the difference between Rob Bell's dominionist social gospel and that of the Gospel of the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:1-7
Well my dear friend, I think you're missing a few key points to Bell's talk.
1. The comparing of Jesus to Mithra is a wonderful device I think. He's saying all the terms and ideas surrounding these gods were familiar. (this may or may not be true but should be simple enough to look up)The big difference with Christianity's version was that there was more than just a story, there were people giving their lives and submitting to and serving one another in the name of Jesus. I understood his point to be, even though certain details have been around for awhile, in the case of Jesus they're true.
2. Starting at the 10:10 mark he lays out the Gospel in a way that I don't have a problem with. He says we need to be rescued from our sin, that Jesus and His resurrection is the how and that God's will is the why. Its in different language than I normally see it and may not be fleshed out but I don't see his wrap up statement as contradictory.
Neither my opinions about Rob Bell nor my reasons for showing him as the Wolf were built on this video alone.
You are correct, he does use evangelical language in his video but that he uses these terms does not equal orthodoxy. Certainly we could look to the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for proof of this. I haven't the time to outline his very nuanced theology for you here. If you are interested in what he teaches you will have to research that for yourself. His aberrancies are readily available and addressed online. Just Google - Rob Bell Heresy - and you find them.
I would just encourage you to be careful whose defense you run to. Especially when that person has been so clearly identified to be a danger by so many well respected Shepherds in the Church.
Be sure that Jesus knew what he was saying when he warned that ravenous wolves would soon creep into His flock and do it under cover. They are here amongst us brother.
Again I think you're overlooking things. I said he does NOT use familiar language which is why it sounds different.
As for the not building your opinion on this video alone, perhaps another video would have been a better choice then.
I for one appreciate that he addresses the commonalities between myths of old and the life of Jesus. The similarities exist and its foolish to ignore them if one wants to reach a culture that knows of them and will use them as justification for not believing.
And when he says "What makes yours [god] so special?" clearly he's asking what many people ask everyday. But then he goes on to explain what makes Christ special.
I'm still not sure where I stand on Rob Bell, but I think you may have picked one of the worst videos to make your point.
Also, let's play Catan soon!
JE replys "I would just encourage you to be careful whose defense you run to. Especially when that person has been so clearly identified to be a danger by so many well respected Shepherds in the Church."
While I generally agree with JE in that Rob Bell's teachings have been heretical. And furthermore, I happen to agree with the Gospel and your presentation of it.
I would just say that your reply quoted above is subjective and could be seen as contradictory. Under your same premise, don't you think that's what the pharisees said about Jesus?
What I take away is this: Be discerning 1 John 4, and continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Thank you Nick for responding. The one difference, I think, between what I said to Turbyfill and what the Pharisees might have said to those within their flocks with regard to Jesus and His teaching is that Rob Bell's false teaching is easily demonstrable by comparing his teaching to that which is generally accepted as orthodox. Whereas the false accusations of the Pharisees against Jesus' teaching were that He violated both oral tradition and Torah. In short, they were not able to demonstrate that Jesus teaching ran contrary to the Word of God. I believe we can with Rob Bell.
So to that extent I would reject the comparison as being a subjective one. However, I completely agree that one should personally understand these issues. My exhortation to Turbyfill, if I might reassert and restate, was only that he should not run so quickly to the defense of one whose teaching has been "demonstrated" to be unorthodox by very respected teachers in the Church.
My primary concern is not with defending Rob Bell, though I stand by my opinions and points. But I am curious about how people who don't yet know that the creator of the universe loves them will read this post. Don't say they'll never see it, cause some will at some point.
I realize that Turbyfill. I was just answering Nick's question.
Certainly outsiders will see it but I am not too concerned about it. What are we to do about unbelievers who may happen on the history of the Church and find council after council condemning heresy? Or when they read in the New Covenant Scriptures about Paul's condemnation of false teachers within the Church?
If an unbeliever should happen upon this post I would hope that they do not see a fractured Christianity but a faithful remnant defending the truth of the Gospel.
I hope that too. I will say though, those that are unfamiliar with the church will probably be more drawn to Rob Bell's video thatn the other gentlemen. Again I know who your intended audience is, but still, without clearly stating where the discrepancy is in his teaching, it will not help teach those who don't know what to look for.
I think that is a fair point.
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